Taji’s Frankenstein Monster: The Perfect Vo Casting Site

30 Comments

1. This is an ambitious project, even for the indefatigable and talented Dr. Frankenstein.

   I hope you get a boatload of replies, ’cause this is a meaty topic that has filled many a forum, listserve, and blog with endlesss opinions.

   I’m going to really get out my wish-book here.

   Let me start by saying that it’d be refreshing to see a P-to-P site that has at least equal conscience for its talent as its clients…even though both would pay.

   I think I would demand a certain level of technical and voice accomplishment (a la a SaVoa-type credential).

   I would also probably cap the number of talent, although that’s going to strike many as an agent-like manipulation. So be it.

   Would it be too much to ask for clients to be required to give feedback?…or for all who auditioned to be able to hear the final, winning audition?

   Finally, I think it would behoove the owners of such a site to earnestly work to set pricing standards that don’t encourage a dumbing-down of fair pay, even though that works against the new global marketplace of \anything goes\ compensation.

   There’s probably more I’m forgetting, but it’s past 4am, and I gotta get to bed!

   Nice Taj!

   Dave Courvoisier
   (aka CourVO)

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3. My wish list is clashing with my brain which is screaming “p2p is a faulty business concept”.

   What I mean by that is the primary source of revenue for a p2p site are membership fees paid by voice talents…that’s where the p2p profit is coming from. P2P sites don’t promise or guarantee any of these voice talents will get any jobs for their p2p fee…only exposure. Compare that with the agency system when an agent is paid by both the voice talent and the client but only after the agent has secured work from one for the other. These agents also have web sites with voice talent demos on them like the p2p folks.

   So a p2p site markets itself as the place for clients to go to find great voice talent. Some p2p sites (like Voices.com which is run by well meaning, upstanding business people) say they try and manage fees the clients offer voice talents for jobs (like a $100 minimum, wa hoo) and some others (like Voice 123) just take any clients that come, let them charge what they want and then throw those auditions out to the lowest bidder.

   As a voice talent, I see lower fees, lower quality clients and lowered expectations within and about the voice over industry with the pay-to-play system.

   My wish is simply that the pay-to-play system go away because I believe their business model lowers the quality of voice over work specifically and the reputation of our industry globally.

   I have yet to hear a convincing business argument that proves me wrong but anyone is welcome to try.

   Best always,
   – Peter

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5. Everything that people want in a P2P is exactly what a good agent (and “good” is relative) will provide for you – whether virtual or brick-and-mortar.

   The biggest hurdle is in the name. Once we stop calling it Pay-to-Play, and instead work on devising a business model for what it *really* should be – a virtual talent agency – we can more efficiently create an entity that will indeed meet and exceed the needs of both talent and buyer. The other “myth” we need to get rid of is that the agency model is no longer relevant. It depends on the agency and the relationship with your representation. Agencies exist for a reason, and those forward-looking agents (like mine at Vox and Atlas) will continue to exist for quite a long time in one form or another.

   These so-called Pay-to-Play sites will continue to charge your credit card while keeping the clients (i.e., the talent buyers) happy. It’s the only way for it to continue to work. If they don’t keep buyers happy, there is no traffic. If there’s not enough traffic, the talent will be unhappy and – as usual – complain about the fact that they don’t get enough leads via that site. It’s an endless circle.

   How you intend to break that circle (usually a lonely task) is up to you.

   -Anthony

6. Mahmoud,

   Like Dave, I think this is quite an ambitious project and well worth a few minutes of discussion.

   Such a site, to survive, has to be economically viable as well as a fulfillment of the wishes of we voice actors. Indeed, the single greatest challenge for such sites is to get enough work flowing through the doors, of sufficiently high value and quality, that there’s work enough to make it worthwhile to be there.

   Thus I would suggest the key characteristics would need to include:

   1. Some mechanism for providing around-the-clock custsomer service to both the people hiring the voices and to the voice talent.

   2. A mechanism similar to Voices.com’s “SurePay” to guarantee payment to the voice talent and delivery of quality audio to the clients.

   3. Highly optimized SEO for the site to assure that people looking for voices can find the site quickly and easily.

   4. An audition process for the voice talent to assure quality recordings for the clients.

   I hope these are helpful thoughts.

   Be well,
   Bob

   1. Mahmoud,

      Thanks for posting the topic of the perfect voice-over website as it’s one the team at Voices.com discusses on a frequent basis. In reality, this is our core mission — to create a place where industry people can conduct business.

      To that end, I found Bob’s remarks particularly useful. But before I comment on those, one must consider the following:

      * Voices.com generates more gross revenue from clients (who hire voice talent) than we do from memberships. Accomplishing this balance keeps us equally aware of the needs of the client and voice talent.

      * There are extremely high costs to operate a world-class business, most notably an investment in qualified staff members to service and support the millions of visitors and tens of thousands of customers. Scaling a business to this size is no easy feat and one that requires a secure technological infrastructure (web servers for hosting terabytes of data, high bandwidth capacity, merchant accounts, telecommunication systems) as well as a culture of innovation where our staff and supporting personnel strive to improve all aspects of the business.

      Now, regarding the characteristics suggested by Bob, I’d like to highlight what it takes to build and operate a dream site. Many of the recommendations made are already in place at Voices.com.

      1. Outstanding customer service. While we’re available for 10 business hours per day, we also offer a wide variety of resources and tutorials online where many common questions can be answered. Our toll-free number is a popular means to connect with Voices.com staff.

      2. Escrow Payment Service. SurePay has been one of the best investments in technology and financial resources we’ve made to date. The legal requirements by financial institutions in order to operate an escrow service guarantee that all transactions are accounted for, payments are distributed promptly and that significant minimum balances are held in the bank accounts. We have several patents pending with respect to SurePay.

      3. Highly optimized website using SEO. Search engine optimization is an art and a science. We’ve been engaging in this strategy for over five years, which means, that we have a 5-year “first mover advantage.” Google, Yahoo and Microsoft’s Bing have ever-changing algorithms, meaning that the rules constantly change and you need to be razor sharp to keep top placements.

      4. An online audition process. Not only do useful and relevant job details need to be captured by the system, those same details need to be presented in a meaningful way so that voice talent can quickly evaluate if a specific job is an opportunity they are interested in.

      After recently completing the 2010 Report on the Voice Over Industry, which we will be publishing and sending to Premium members shortly, I’m more confident than ever about the opportunities available for voice talent and the promise of Voices.com in the years to come.

      Thanks for your consideration.

      ** You are welcome to email me personally if you have comments you’d like to make privately. My email is david@voices.com

      David Ciccarelli
      CEO
      Voices.com
      http://www.voices.com

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8. HI Taji,

   I must echo the sentiments and suggestions made by Dave. For the most part, over the past couple years, I’ve noticed improvements on these sites. But, there are still missing elements, or features needing at least some form of improvement. Plus, not all P-to-P sites are equal.

   Talent: I agree to some sort of standard. Whether new or seasoned, the talent needs to be professional. Not just a part-time gig for extra $$. SaVOA accredidation is a good standard to follow, however, new talent really can’t meet the whole criteria. Do we disallow new talent because they can’t meet the SaVOA requirements? The new talent may not have a client list as of yet. But they must have professional training/coaching and experience.

   Pricing: One site in particular has great disparity in membership level pricing. $300 is reasonable, but the jump to the next level is $2000. Granted, that level gets you listed on a number of specialized affiliate websites, but not all talents are going to be listed on every site. A talent may only specialize in two or three areas, not ten or twelve. An intermediate level would be good.

   Capping: Having a professional talent criteria addresses this issue to some degree. There are several sites that cap the number of talent that get listed. I’m still open on this issue. How is capping determined? X number of trailer voices, X number of commercial voices, X number of audiobook voices..?

   Feedback: This should be a requirement, for both the client and the talent. On numerous occassions, the client has not provided feedback on the P-to-P site, although they gave excellent commentary in email correspondance. Perhaps I should have asked for feedback to be left on the P-to-P site.

   And – yes – being able to hear the winning audition would help.

   Rates: Definitely, rates need to be controlled to prevent the dumbing down by those who do not really make a living off voice over work. I see this on a few sites, where the rate reflects the level of “professionalism” or lack there-of, on both sides of market. A voice seeker specifies a budget way less than fair market value, and dozens of providers responding in kind.

   One other feature I would like to see. Out of all the auditions submitted by talent, it would be good to know if your audition is even being considered. A selection pool where say, the top 10 talents are being reviewed for final selection.

   I hope this helps.

   cheers,
   Wayne “Wayne Edwards” Nelms

9. I took your challenge, Taji, and here’s my contribution to your monster:

   http://nethervoice.com/nethervoice/2010/01/28/pay-to-play-dracula-or-frankenstein/

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11. Hmmmm . . . the perfect site?

    Well, make it like Voices.com, but add Voice 123’s feedback, stats, and the ‘we opened your audition’ button.

    I like the limited talent rule. Say, 300 of each voice type. (so, 300 British, 300 old lady, 300 monster truck announcer, 300 Christopher Walkins.) And have the voice types reviewed by demo. (A Liverpool accent needs to sound like a liverpool accent!)

    For tech ability, have everyone submit 10 auditions, over a period of ten days, and they get one script a day. (this way it’s unlikely they went to a studio and paid someone to produce their 10 auditions.)

    Basically, the more hoops you make talent jump through, the higher your level of talent will be.

    Make the minimum job fee $200.

    Fair value, make sure everyone gets the notification for a job at the same time.

    Finally, call it Voicenstein

    (I probably have others, these are just off the top of my head.)

    Just my 1/50th of a dollar.

    TJ Jones

12. Hey Taji,

    Wow, this is a big question, but it looks like the “wish list” has a good start to it already. Since this is a “in a perfect world” type of question, I might give some answers that might not all work together … but in a perfect voice-over world they would!

    1) Transparency would be great. It would be nice to know who the client is and what the audition is for. I understand why clients like anonymity, but from the voice-over artist’s perspective, it’s not ideal. It would also be nice if the client had to reveal who got the gig. Not only does it let everyone who auditioned know that their audition wasn’t pirated and used elsewhere without their knowledge, but it gives voice-over artists an idea of what clients are looking for.

    2) It would also be great if the voice-over casting website required clients to pay a certain amount for the gig. No low-balling talent because of the recession. If you wanted to host all types of clients and voice-over artists of all levels, maybe there could be distinct areas for novice voice-over talent or low-paying clients (such as university students looking for a voice-over artist for their video), etc.

    3) There should be some kind of quality control for demos as well. This will save the clients time if they don’t have to sort through a mess of unprofessionally produced demos. It keeps the industry standards high.

    4) Yes, the talent that is allowed to register should have gone through a voice-over training program. Also keeps the standards high.

    Um…

    5) Almost goes without saying, but there should be areas of the website for all parts of the voice-over industry; such as audio books, video games, foreign language voice-overs, etc.

    6) How about allowing for a bigger upload size for demos *in stereo*?

    7) It would be helpful if you could post a sample of your work and resume and then the site would post jobs that you missed out on until you join … a la voice123.com

    That’s all I can think of for now! It would be interesting to see your Frankenstein come to life!

    Best,
    Catherine Marshall,
    Such A Voice

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14. Hey Taji,

    Paul Strikwerda nailed it. The best VO talent site is the one that charges commissions.

    It’s based on the tried-and-true method by which VO agencies made their money long before the Internet came to be.

    The agency screens their talent for…well….talent. If they deem that person worthy of their roster, they put the talent out there for auditions. Ultimately, their ROI is the commission they get from that talent.

    Talent gets one minor gig a year vs 50 auditions? Toast.

    You don’t have to make a list of wants or needs Taji; all one has to do is follow this basic concept and the site will serve it’s own needs and that of it’s roster on its own. (Though Paul did a very nice job with the details).

    For instance, if members are screened for talent, audio quality, demos and service, then the site will offer nothing but quality talent that will in turn generate commission revenues.

    As noted by Peter K – the business model of a site like Voices.com and Voice123 is flawed, becuase to generate revenue, they need to take money for memberships from as many people they can – making their roster the proverbial \dogs breakfast\ of talent, service and product.

    Charge commission though…..no yer talkin’ I think the only thing I would take from a P2P site would be a small yearly membership fee to augment accounting and advertising – that fee would be transparent, in that the membership would have a say in advertising, site upgrades etc.

    My two bits.

    Regards,

    Todd Schick

15. Very interesting and intriguing concep, Taji. Let’s discuss this further. If it’s a possibility for a win-win; I would be willing to participate.; Let me state here that VOplanet was developed as an answer to a need that TALENT wanted. You all wanted a site where you could deal directly with the client so we gave it to you. Now all I’m hearing is talent griping about other talent who underbid jobs; low paying clients or clients who don’t pay; and the lack of any support team to help you make bids and book jobs.; What we are finding is that most of our clients choose to use us as agents and book talent through VoiceCasting; the 30 year-old talent agency associated with our site.; After all; VoiceCasting@VOplanet is ahead of the game because we don’t allow talent to underbid or squabble about rates. We work with our clients to get very fair rates for our talent. We negotiate rates based on what the market bears along with our extensive knowledge and experience in this area.; Our operations are completely transparent and we report what job was won by whom and how much they made on our site and in our promotional material. If a client goes elsewhere for talent; we attempt to find out where and who won the audition.; We operate with minimums set for job fees and NEVER underbid as a means of gaining a job for our talent.; Auditions are open to any member always. Just go online to any audition and have at it. We never limit who can audition for what or how many times.;We have way less than 300 of each type talent signed with us at VoiceCasting, as we only accept the best. Since we do business with only reputable voice-seekers; there is never any game-playing with how much is being paid and for what markets or period of time. At VoiceCasting we make sure that everything is written in a deal memo with talent and clients; and it is a legal document BEFORE the job is done. We go to every effort necessary to collect fees due our talent in a timely fashion. After all; we don’t get paid if you don’t get paid!; We only accept talent with certain criteria and we screen our talent roster constantly. If we run across any talent who’s demo is out-of-date or is less than our high standards; we work with that talent to come up to standards regarding demo quality; talent quality; and studio quality. We adhere to the ethical practices of SaVoa (we are their affiliate agency); SAG; AFTRA; and our own high standards since we have a reputation to uphold.; We maintain open communications and working relationships with the top VO coaches available so that we can help match a coach to any talent who asks for that option.; We stay apprised of all the latest technologies; gadgets and platforms in order to stay in the forefront of our industry. We attend classes; do extensive market research; read books; listen to podcasts and webinars and seek information from industry professionals. We share our knowledge and advertise our talent via social networking; e-mail; print; telephone conferencing; blogging; and live speaking engagements with our industry peers.; It would be interesting to discuss having a talent board or an agency run by a co-op. Here are some questions to think about:; 1. Who does the advertising; decides the budget for it; and implements the ad plan daily?; 2. Who runs the social networking dept. daily and who monitors their effectiveness?; 3. Who builds and maintains the site? Who owns it and pays for it?; 4. Who does a budget to see what running this agency will cost? (I see 10% of bookings is a number you used. I hope you have a kick-ass sales team to get you enough bookings to run it on 10%! And how do you plan on paying that sales team?); 5. Who monitors the website and answers all tech questions? Who fixes the site if it breaks?; 6. Who screens new talent and monitors demos on all current talent?; 7. Who does the research and marketing to get new talent on the site?; 8. Who markets to potential new clients and how?; 9. Who maintains house accounts and how?; 10. Who sets up the criteria for talent on the site?; 11. How do you get voice seekers to the site and who addresses their needs when they want an audition or job booked?; 12. Who sets rates; usage; residuals; etc?; 13. Who will be available close to 24/7 to answer all talent inquiries; questions; or concerns about the site; auditions; jobs; demos; promotion; gripes; etc.?; 14. Who writes the checks?; 15. Who sends 1099’s out at the end of the year and reports to the US govt.?; 16. Who addresses and is LIABLE if there is some legal issue that arises? Who pays attorneys fees if this happens?; 17. Who handles disputes of any kind while always seeking to find the best solution for all concerned?; 18. Where does the 50% come from to pay talent up front? Do the folks that run the company(agents; tech support; sales support; advertising and PR dept.; marketing dept.; legal dept.; financial dept; etc.) get paid 50% up front also? Where does that money come from?; 19. At the end of the year if there is a deficit to run the agency; who pays that? Are the members going to be willing to cover expenditures that weren’t covered by bookings?; Now that you have more info on what it takes to run an agency and this is by no means a complete list of an agency owner’s responsibilities; have at it! I’d love to hear all comments and ideas about how to better do my job for you.; Best regards; Donna Summers; COO/Agency Division; VOplanet; Owner; dsummers@voicecasting.com; Donna Summers

    1. Well, Donna said a mouthful… and it’s great feedback from someone who runs a thriving business.

       Donna’s business model is unique and maybe even a little perplexing to some.

       In her proud list of things they do right, the line between VoiceCasting and VOPlant, though, gets blurred. For instance, if VoiceCasting is an agency, then are talent at VOPlanet vying for the same job that she apportions to her more exclusive list of agency talent?

       Am I missing something?…’cause as a VOPlanet subscriber, I DO NOT see who wins auditions and for how much. So, is that a VoiceCasting thing? See what I mean?

       Donna, can you please explain the relationship between the VoiceCasting side of things, and the VOPlanet side? Do you run both out of the same office?…same staff?…why? Is one more lucrative than the other? I can’t compare, ’cause (ahem) you never send me AGENCY leads, even though I think I’m on your agency roster. 🙂

       I DO appreciate VOPlanet’s feature for giving feedback to the talent who audition. I know this is tedious for voice-seekers, but oh so important to talent. I’d like to see this nurtured. I would LOVE to be able to hear the winning audition on ANY job.

       Donna’s admonitions about the nuts ‘n’ bolts of running a business are eye-openers, though. This is the tedium and day-to-day that needs to be run with a savvy COO like Donna — from the top-down…not by a committee or a co-op.

       These comments to Taji’s post are showing a surprising solidarity of ideas. So, what are we calling this new enterprise? Are business-licensing fees less expensive in Cairo?

       CourVO

       1. I’m looking forward to hearing the answers to Dave’s questions. Donna? You going to answer?

16. I agree that there should be a reasonable minimum talent fee that clients cannot dip below.

    I also don’t like bidding on a project that “pays $x to $xx.” Just tell us what the job pays and pick the best audition!

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18. Brilliant, in-depth discussion from all!
    All the points I was going to made have
    been covered by you…some of the best in
    the business. Now Dr. Frankenstein…
    what’s next?

19. Wow! Great topic, and clearly lots of rich ideas. As I read the posts, just about everything I had to add was said, and mostly by Dave and Bob. Great stuff, guys!

    If you and I are going to go into business together, we should start by stealing all the good ideas from the current sites! 😉

    First off, we need a definite social media presence on all the current popular sites like Twitter, Facebook and YouTube: We need to keep our finger on the pulse of our demographics.

    All of our status updates, podcasts, blogs and vlogs need to be pithy, fun and informative, with a few interviews sprinkled here and there with experts, clients and talent.

    As for the site, the Job page should have all the info the talent needs, including the deadline, the budget, the script (NOT as a downloadable file, but right there – on the page) and how many people have already auditioned.

    I like letting the talent have their own “page” on a site – and to make it even more homey, let’s allow them to use their page as their own blog, if they wish. This way, the talent will be more likely to drive traffic to their page, creating more potential for us to have clients!

    Maybe limiting the talent on the site would be a good idea – we could audition the folks who want to be listed and ensure that our clients are going to get auditions from quality people.

    How’s that for a start?

20. First things first: Taji, my public apologies for re-posting your blog without permission. I am new to the social network world and apparently made a big mistake. I mentioned your name but failed to add a link back. The wrath of Taji has been heard and acknowledged! I will be more mindful in the future.

    Humbly,

    Donna Summers

    1. Hi Dave, Todd, and All,

       Here are answers to Dave’s questions. It’s been a busy day and I’ve just now had time to slow down enough to answer. Please let me know if any of you have further questions or suggestions. I love what I’m hearing on this blog!

       Dave stated that the line between VoiceCasting and VOPlant gets blurred. If VoiceCasting is an agency, then are talent at VOPlanet vying for the same jobs of agency talent?

       Here is how it works: When a client goes directly with a talent at VOplanet, it’s just like any other P2P site. Agents do not tread on that territory. We don’t ask folks to audition, we don’t suggest folks to clients, we don’t negotiate or collect rates. It’s all between you and your client.

       When a client comes to us as agents for an audition through VoiceCasting, we can send the audition out to our select few VoiceCasting talent or to everyone, depending on what the client wants to hear. Michelle and I then listen to every single audition that comes in. If you are a VoiceCasting talent, you get first billing if the client wants to limit his audition numbers. There is a numbering system we use when we send auditions to clients, so we make sure to put the best talent first. That is usually the talent we have listed at VoiceCasting. The client can renumber with his own choices and that is when you see sometimes that you are in the top 5 or 10 for an audition. We also list VoiceCasting talent on VideoVoicebank. VOplanet talent are not found there. We are working on some advertising that will give further distinctions to the two sites.

       Dave says that as a VOPlanet subscriber, he does not see who wins auditions and for how much. Dave, we have no way of knowing who wins VOplanet jobs unless a talent decides to share with us. Most don’t. They want to keep their clients as far away from the agency as possible, for obvious reasons!

       At VoiceCasting we can tell you exactly who got the job IF one of our talent booked it and we show how much each job pays on the audition sheet. We publish these jobs in a newsletter that goes out once or twice a month. If you want to subscribe, just shoot me an e-mail at dsummers@voplanet.com. As far as allowing talent to hear the winning audition, we used to do it that way and we feel it is counter-productive. Talent should spend their time developing their own unique style, not worrying about copying the style of the guy who “won”. We spent countless hours listening to talent say, “I could have done it better,” when we let the winning audition be posted. It’s not healthy or helpful, in my opinion.

       I hope I have explained the relationship and differences between the two entities. We have two offices. Michelle is in Atlanta and Robert and I are in Orange Beach, AL. If you get close to Atlanta or Orange Beach, come for a visit and I’ll give you a boat ride in Orange Beach if it’s warm!

       Dave also asked if one is more lucrative than the other. No, Dave,they are separate yet complementary entities and we need the revenues of both to successfully run our businesses. If we didn’t have great talent, we couldn’t get great auditions. If we didn’t have great auditions, we couldn’t have great talent. And Dave, you do get agency leads all the time. No one is ever barred from auditioning. We just don’t advertise which leads are private and which leads are public. What does it matter, as long as you get the leads!

       1. Donna,

          Abundanza! OK, got it!

          Thanks for taking the time to explain, Donna.

          I know you’re busy, and you’ve been very transparent, here, with the inner-workings of your two businesses.

          Just one clarification: This is what I see from your first comment on this blog:”…our operations are completely transparent and we report what job was won by whom and how much they made on our site and in our promotional material…”

          In your second response, you say: “…we have no way of knowing who wins VOplanet jobs unless a talent decides to share with us. Most don’t…”

          I’m assuming then it’s the VoiceCasting jobs you’re transparent with, and the VOPlanet jobs you don’t know about?

          Perhaps a moot point.

          I actually understand your suggestion about talent not needing to hear the winning audition, but I think there is something to be gleaned from knowing how the pros tackle copy that you’ve also submitted. That is undoubtedly another layer of complication for the p2p site, though.

          Audition it…and forget it!

          The one comment I consistently hear from my VO peers is that they like VOPlanet, ’cause the quality of the opportunities is high, and commensurate with the level of pay. Bravo for toeing the line on that with clients!

          Thanks, too, for explaining how you yourself reserve the information about which lead is agency and which is P2P. That clears up a lot for me, and I’m glad to know I’m in the mix.

          Thanks!

          Dave Courvoisierr

          1. You are welcome, Dave. I can see where it’s a bit confusing about the difference between the two sites. I hope I have helped clarify. If not, just keep asking and I’ll tell you all I know! And yes, we do know who books at VoiceCasting IF one of our talent gets the job. We don’t always know who books at VOplanet unless the client or talent tells us. That site is set up strictly for the use of the clients and the talent to interface directly without our nosing around.

             As far as rates go, you don’t get what you don’t ask for. We’re just good at asking because we can back it up with our excellent talent. Thanks to all of you for all you do to keep the professionalism in our industry.

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23. You have a great idea and the feedback ideas are all quite good. Keep us update if you ever decide to create it. Thanks for sharing.

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